#1 2017-06-15 16:01:31

Dev Julia
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-16
Posts: 140

Balancing Changes!

Hello all!

A lot have changed in Titan Brawl balance since its original launch. In our approach , we wanted the new units to be somewhat better than half, and worse than half of already existing Champions.

By adding new units, boosting an nerfing existing ones, we had come to the situation when the Balance is not clear enough, especially when it comes to the Rarity of the Champions.

Many of you are asking why the differences between the Attack and Defense are not obvious? Why some Common Units are stronger than the Rare or even Epic ones?

We want to introduce a precise rules of Balancing, that would answer these and other questions.

First of all, we do not intended Epic units to be simply better than the Rare or the Common ones. In situation when Epic > Rare > Common, all the Common and Rare units become obsolete at some point.

What we want to do is focus on the Champions Roles and their properties:

  • Defense

  • Attack

  • Summoners

(Support is a different category on its own).

Each of this Roles would share basic properties:

  • Single/Multiple Unit

  • Hit Points (Low, Medium or High)

  • Damage Per Second (Low, Medium or High)

  • Target (Single or Multiple)

In its core, every Role would have specific properties attributed to them:

Attack: Single Unit, Low HP and High DPS, Single Target
Defense: Single Unit, High HP, Low DPS, Multiple Target
Summoners: Multiple Units, Medium HP, Medium DPS, Single Target

Each of the three Roles (if you exclude Special Moves) beats one of the other two, and loses to the other. Just like in the Rock, Paper, Scissors game you are all familiar with:


  • Attack wins with Defense but is defeated by Summoners.

  • Defense loses against Attack but beats Summoners.

  • And Summoner are weak against Defense but strong against Attack.


Now let´s add the Rarity to it.

Rarity would not necessary mean that one unit is stronger than the other. Rarity would add complexity to the unit, and in certain situations, a tactical value.

Common: both the units and their Special Moves have basic properties/attributes.

Rare: Apart from the basic properties, both units and their Special Moves have extra ones.

It can be a Ranged Attack, Damage Over Time, Stun or/and Push.

Epic: Both units and their Special Moves can incorporate EXTRA properties from other the Roles

Attack: Medium HP, Multiple Target
Defense: Medium DPS, Single Target
Summoners: High HP, Multiple Target

In the image you can see the proposed Role and Rarity of each unit. Some of the units need necessary changes (Gaia is not a Summoner at the moment, but we are currently reviewing this unit).

What do you think about proposed changes?

---------

This is the first part of the balancing proposal, as we also have to take in consideration other attributes that were not mentioned in this post (for example the how Stun, Damage Over Time and Immediate Damage influence on each other).

We will also introduce the rules of exchanging the Tokens in the situation when the unit changes its Rarity.

New Balance

Link To The Image

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#2 2017-06-15 17:06:10

Azgoth
Member
Registered: 2017-05-08
Posts: 33

Re: Balancing Changes!

It seams good that you are trying to simplify this.

I don't see Gurb on this picture.
It will be great if you want to remove him, but I don't believe in this.

Very many units have to be changed to give this table a sense.
That is why we can't comment this now.

Simple example:
Snuft rare, Karnac epic.
The same unit but Snuft SM push, Karnac not.

I hope that by changing the units you will not forget about not creating the same.
Like for example Aisha and Maya, Elena and Sabrina, Treebor and Ding now.
Two the same units, people will play the one that is stronger, the second one will not be used.


5 times solo season winner
2 times second place
The best player ever.

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#3 2017-06-15 20:29:16

MintSlim
Member
Registered: 2017-05-12
Posts: 4

Re: Balancing Changes!

Azgoth wrote:

It seams good that you are trying to simplify this.

I don't see Gurb on this picture.
It will be great if you want to remove him, but I don't believe in this.

Very many units have to be changed to give this table a sense.
That is why we can't comment this now.

Simple example:
Snuft rare, Karnac epic.
The same unit but Snuft SM push, Karnac not.

I hope that by changing the units you will not forget about not creating the same.
Like for example Aisha and Maya, Elena and Sabrina, Treebor and Ding now.
Two the same units, people will play the one that is stronger, the second one will not be used.

+1

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#4 2017-06-16 07:50:02

Dev Julia
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-16
Posts: 140

Re: Balancing Changes!

Azgoth wrote:

It seams good that you are trying to simplify this.

I don't see Gurb on this picture.
It will be great if you want to remove him, but I don't believe in this.

Very many units have to be changed to give this table a sense.
That is why we can't comment this now.

Simple example:
Snuft rare, Karnac epic.
The same unit but Snuft SM push, Karnac not.

I hope that by changing the units you will not forget about not creating the same.
Like for example Aisha and Maya, Elena and Sabrina, Treebor and Ding now.
Two the same units, people will play the one that is stronger, the second one will not be used.

The table is just an example how the Champions should be organised and it represents of what Common / Rare / epic ratio we would like to see in the game. As mentioned in the post, some of the Champions would need to be reviewed to fit in proposed categories.

Let´s take Snuft as an example. With his current HP and DPS he is somewhere in between Attack and Defense Champion - we would most probably had to adapt those stats.

If we consider him an Attack Champion he fits into Attack Epic category as his Special Move does Push and targets multiple units.

Gurb as we know him would be one of the Common Summoners.

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#5 2017-06-16 07:50:07

Bezoedelaar
Member
Registered: 2017-06-16
Posts: 2

Re: Balancing Changes!

Let's see. I think there are a lot of things, that can be put one or another way. But for now i will propose mine:

First some Overall thoughts:

Supporters... Well, i would add them to the summoners. And make it more like a UTILITY Units. Maybe you can add other Units too.

I would not make ranged attacks a specification for rarity. Maybe make it easier to counter it. But by now i can say that ranged attacks don't bring such a big Advantage to justify a rarity upgrade.


I try to make a Close rundown:

Ding is fine.

Gildward and Brian should be in the same Tier. Both at least rare since they are tanks with a Support SM.

Peacebot is a Close call, his AOE SM maybe can make him rare.

Gordon and yorke are fine.

So is Erik.

Keiyo is completely wrong. He is a high dps champ with a utility SM therefore DPS EPIC imo.

Korang should be common. Maybe nerf the dmg of the SM and make him tankier so he fits better in his role.

Drok and Rok could be common. Their SM is nice but more of utility. Not too much Utility. So they are also on the close edge between common and rare.

Chi Chi is fine.

Fristor is ultra wrong i think. You cannot put him anywhere else than Thor. Beside that he has a huge aoe dmg and stun SM which alone should make him epic if you call him a tank. He Needs to be more specialiced in my eyes. Either more tankyness and less dmg or more dmg and less tankyness. Right now he is allround.

Talked about Brian earlier.

Eira is fine. Her SM is epic worthy. Her overallkit is common. So rare it is.

Miriel is common. Nothing Special. Nothing overly strong. All fine.

Same with Sabrina. Common is the way to go.

Snuff could be epic. He has good dmg and a lot of Utility.

Violet should be common. (see Miriel)

Thor. Well is similar to fristor. Not really focused on one role. So Rare may be not enough for him.

Joao is just right where he is.

Elena looks more like a common to me.

Did i miss something on treebor?? He is a green Ding!! So put him to common defensiv.

Everett is fine.

Gaia is the Archetyp of a rare DPS. AOE dmg + plus ranged.

Chippy is fine.

Haven't seen Grunder yet so i can't tell.

Holgrush Epic? I rather have him common. Archetyp of a selfhealing tank. So maybe rare but sure not epic.

Carnac should be rare. Lots of dmg but no Utility.

Have not seen Aisha yet.

Maya should be rare. Raw dmg Output but also no Utility. But the SM is too strong for common.

The last 3 are fine.


There are a lot of points that are arguable. Don't Forget that this is only my honest opinion.
But the concept on itself is a good way to start.


If you find a mistake, you can keep it.

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#6 2017-06-16 08:14:52

Hurdaci
Member
From: Bronx
Registered: 2017-04-20
Posts: 65
Website

Re: Balancing Changes!

Ok so you are planning to change the special moves of most champions.
And you need ideas.

I would recommend you to scroll through different Dota 2 in-game mods (Custom hero survival,ability draft) where you can find hundreds of ideas about new specials moves.
These are the games which you select 4-6 ability for your hero among hundreds of ability pool.
It can be usefeul.

Making a rare champion's special target 1 enemy while epic targets multiple enemies is just boring.

There are hundreds of abilites used in rpg-moba-mmorpg games as you know for example :

-Invisibility

-Clone of enemies

-Throwing enemy back

-Burning mana

-Lifesteal!

-Swapping positions

-Blinding enemy vision

-Ministun

-Reviving fallen

etc


Sad that I will be missing this game reach E-Sports level.

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#7 2017-06-16 08:34:17

Dev Julia
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-16
Posts: 140

Re: Balancing Changes!

Bezoedelaar wrote:

Let's see. I think there are a lot of things, that can be put one or another way. But for now i will propose mine:

First some Overall thoughts:

Supporters... Well, i would add them to the summoners. And make it more like a UTILITY Units. Maybe you can add other Units too.

This would break the idea of Rock Paper scissor concept. A supporting Champion could not take down on his on an Attack champion.

Regarding the rest of the feedback, the proposal is a representation of Rare / Common / Epic ratio and corresponds to the rules of rarity we have proposed. Many Champions would need a review to fit the roles, but some are are already correct (if you look into the proposed rules).

Miriel is a one unit Champion, with High DPS and low HP. She is an Attack Champion. The extra property she has is that her attacks are Ranged. This makes her a Rare Champion.

Sabrina´s extra property is Damage Over Time, Elena´s - Stun... this what differentiate them for Common attack Champions.

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#8 2017-06-16 08:40:56

Dev Julia
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-16
Posts: 140

Re: Balancing Changes!

Hurdaci wrote:

Ok so you are planning to change the special moves of most champions.
And you need ideas.

I would recommend you to scroll through different Dota 2 in-game mods (Custom hero survival,ability draft) where you can find hundreds of ideas about new specials moves.
These are the games which you select 4-6 ability for your hero among hundreds of ability pool.
It can be usefeul.

Making a rare champion's special target 1 enemy while epic targets multiple enemies is just boring.

There are hundreds of abilites used in rpg-moba-mmorpg games as you know for example :

-Invisibility

-Clone of enemies

-Throwing enemy back

-Burning mana

-Lifesteal!

-Swapping positions

-Blinding enemy vision

-Ministun

-Reviving fallen

etc

Thanks for the suggestion! But the biggest point of this post is not about creating new mechanics in the game , but to put labels on the ones that are already there. By using Common stats (DPS, HP etc.), adding Extra Attributes that are already existing in the game (Push, Stun, DOT) and combining properties from different classes, we can precise why Champions fit in certain categories.

Having said that, we might be adding extra mechanics that are not existing in the game yet.

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#9 2017-06-16 11:43:18

Jaziel
Member
Registered: 2017-04-12
Posts: 7

Re: Balancing Changes!

Actually i just have a question, have plans of than element influences on the balance?(water, fire, nature).

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#10 2017-06-16 12:45:37

Dev Julia
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-16
Posts: 140

Re: Balancing Changes!

Jaziel wrote:

Actually i just have a question, have plans of than element influences on the balance?(water, fire, nature).

It is possible that we will add this aspect to the balancing. Thanks for bringing this up.

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#11 2017-06-16 12:47:53

Bezoedelaar
Member
Registered: 2017-06-16
Posts: 2

Re: Balancing Changes!

Dev Julia wrote:

This would break the idea of Rock Paper scissor concept. A supporting Champion could not take down on his on an Attack champion.

I understand what you want. But i don't really see, that any tank can win 1 v 1 against a Keiyo or Gurb.

Would'nt make sense anyway. Because as a tank you have low dmg. So either you are not able to kill the generated Units first (if they stand in front of the main unit) or it takes you too Long to kill the main unit and you get killed by the ads.

AOE is a possible answer but you dont want go give every tank an aoe SM?

(I am really intersted in your thoughts and ideas behind this. I really want to help you optimizing it)

P.S. I really don't like the idea of a "minion master" Class. It is just too narrow to make this class as broad and wide as the others. you kinda making the class which is supposed to be countered by it stronger than the class countering the minion class.

Edit: Summoning a wall is also Kind of a tank ability. ist just slowing down and not really giving any active Advantage like keiyo or edburt

Last edited by Bezoedelaar (2017-06-16 12:50:45)

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#12 2017-06-16 13:57:15

JoyRepublic
Member
Registered: 2017-06-16
Posts: 3

Re: Balancing Changes!

Common units are very rare (just 7 our of 36), rare units are the most common... those names don't make sense.

Please put more effort on differentiating the units, especially Maya and Aisha, Gordon and Yorke, Ding and Trebor and few more.

Maya and Aisha could have different range, Rok and Drok too, York could be faster, Snuff might be able to move away Thors cloud, Korang and other fire champions could be more imune to fire wepons than for exaple Aisha and Holgrush, Grunder could be able to shoot targets from the other line

You have many options to make every champion more uniqe, and more playable. For now the weaker part of champions is useless.

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#13 2017-06-16 15:12:37

ChachaB.24
Member
Registered: 2017-06-16
Posts: 1

Re: Balancing Changes!

Hello ! I'm a french player so excuse me in advance for possible errors in my English.

First, I want to say that the game is very great and your balance proposition sound good and logic with the gameplay.
It include many changes for adapt all characters stats and, it has been said, maybe reflect about element attributes.

Game balance it always a pretty complex subject and become a headache for devs.
It could be useful to create an another game mode to test the playability of your balance system as a first approach for players and for you by "collecting" informations about play-styles, introducing littles rewards for attract players.

But in the princip of Rock-Paper-Scissors, if scissors fight paper, the game is over.
If a full attack team fight a full Summoners team, I don't want take bets (even Epic Atk Heroes as multiples targets special movement, Epic Summoners Heroes may have High HP). Maybe you should add in the future, at least one more way to avoid to simplistic advantages or balanced heroes between a same Rarity category.

There is my opinion, so good luck and thanks for your work !

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#14 2017-06-16 16:46:47

jmil
Member
Registered: 2017-06-16
Posts: 8

Re: Balancing Changes!

I think the new concept sounds a bit overcomplicated.

I like the proposed idea of fire/water/earth strength and weakness. If you go with a rock/paper/scissors principle this would probably be a better path to go. So Fire Units would have a dmg advantage over Earth units but weakness vs water.
Then just balance all other Champs and Titans so that they are useful.

And if you really want to hang on to the common/rare/epic categories just give the units a slight advantage in dmg or HP.
Something like that. A rare unit gets like 20 HP on Lvl 10 more than a common and an epic gets 40 or 50 HP more than a common. And perhaps a slight advantage dmg wise on special move or base dmg or a mix of both.

The keynote would be slight! advantage. This way every champ would be useful and rare/epics would give a light advantage but nothing that a skilled player couldn't overcome if he has only commons.

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#15 2017-06-17 21:41:25

Olara
Member
Registered: 2017-04-28
Posts: 17

Re: Balancing Changes!

Just get rid of that common/rar/epic arrangement... even it will take time to balance all, but this will be the right path to go...

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#16 2017-06-29 15:22:42

LAW
Member
Registered: 2017-06-19
Posts: 19

Re: Balancing Changes!

-Maya should have a 2-3 seconds cool-down.
-Gurb's minions should have less hp (125-150 max)
-Firstor AOE damage should go down to 80-90 at max
-Chichi's Aoe should go back up to 100 at max
-add a 2 seconds freeze to Yorke's special (effect on an area while the damage is still on single target and increase its cool down by 1 second)
-extra skill for brian (when he dies he explodes and the ashes slow down the enemies in the area for 2 seconds to their half mobility) "this is because brian is almost useless in no towers or 1 tower maps"
-Tournaments: should have different maps like ranking cause with brian i'm yet to lose a battle thanks to almost impossible to destroy towers
-Elina: buff her max Hp to 550 or give her auto skill like korang that freezes the area for 1 second every 5 seconds.
-Gaia: her special effect should stay for 3 more seconds and do 60 extra damage 20/sec.
-Ding: the noob champion everyone starts with, just give him a simple extra thing like 2 or 3 seconds stun on his special.

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#17 2017-09-11 19:09:53

LAW
Member
Registered: 2017-06-19
Posts: 19

Re: Balancing Changes!

can we get an update on the list after you have finished changing the champions abilities and their class names? and do you have a better estimation of when the update is gonna be released?

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#18 2017-09-13 15:13:06

Dev Julia
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-16
Posts: 140

Re: Balancing Changes!

Hi Law! The update should be live this month, but we do not have the precise date yet. Check out the post about the upcoming changes - it has been edited and the info about the new rarities is added. Soon we will unveil Champions´categories!

http://forum.titanbrawl.com/viewtopic.php?id=513

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