#1 2017-06-23 08:32:02

Shankyu
Member
Registered: 2017-06-23
Posts: 9

Balancing ideas from a beta tester

Ive been playing your game since beta and have spent a large amount of time and a decent amount of money on it. My in game name is @$ensabahnur, previously shankyu, user id 189278. That being said I hope you can take my advice as coming from someone who has in depth knowledge of the mechanics of your game as well as the history and changes of said mechanics. I will attempt to discuss here some issues with those mechanics, primarily balancing issues, and suggest ways to improve. Those in the community reading this please quote and show support for the parts you agree with here or offer other suggestions and fixes. Here goes.

All champs should have skills that scale according to range and area. If a champ is single target and short range they should do high damage. Ranged single, medium damage. Ranged area, low damage. Some good examples of this done right are eira, and chichi. Or an even better comparable example rok and drok. Drok has shorter range, so he has higher damage. Rok has longer range, and so lower damage. This should be a guiding rule for other champs as well. Especially maya, eisha, and violet. korang, treebor, and fristor. elena, gaia , and sabrina. and really all ranged, area covering champs like maya, aisha and fristor. Their being so powerful, having the ability to wipe minions from the field and simultaneously greatly damage champs and totems from such range narrows the players choices in team building greatly. Currently if you dont see maya, aisha, or fristor on a team you see what viable counters there are to them, which are few. In fristor's case nearly none. His special activates quickly enough to beat out most other specials, save rok and thor afaik. But even those arent viable counters. fristor in combination with almost any attacker can and will beat out almost any other duo. Except perhaps the newly updated korang. but if fristor is able to freeze first, which he always will because his special activates faster, even korang and whomever will fail. Enough about that, moving on.

I realize that if you nerf damage on these champs then keiyo and other summoners become harder to stop. This can be easily remedied. Either lower summoners minions hp, or in the case of keiyo allow him only two minions tops to be on the field at any time. Gurb, just reduce his minions hp. Given the current state of affairs a keiyo user could use 10 specials and with maya or aisha behind a decent tank they can all dissapear. there is no reason 10 specials should be beaten by one. regardless of differences in class of attacker.

On your recent rock paper scissors proposal to classifying champs, to me there is glaringly apparent a problem. Area attackers dont just beat summoners, they also beat single target attackers. single target attackers currently are so underpowered comparably that you nearly never see them in any top teir team. The one exception being sabrina and even her use is scant. If you were to grant single target attackers the level of attack you do to area attackers they would obliterate a totem. By this i mean area attackers ability to stop a whole team, again, when behind a decent tank. Why is this even a thing? Why are area attackers so strong? Especially ones who can reach half screen. And not even all, other area attackers like gaia, who i believe is an archetype for how they all should be, dont hit nearly as hard as say maya or aisha. Even thor, who has already seen his fair share of nerfs, is still outshined by these two brutally hitting champs and he doesnt have anywhere near the range.

There are my criticisms, now some suggestions

Maya, nerf, half screen, interruptible, 150-200 damage tops
Aisha, same
Fristor, 75 damage, 3 second freeze, no hitting totem or tower, 3 second gap (can still intterupt most channeling champs before they get out full damage but gives ample time to counter) or reduce range
keiyo, 2 summons max or nerf minions hp if other champs are nerfed
gurb, nerf minions hp or reduce number of minions if other champs are nerfed
treebor, passively summons same minions as edburt, their damage and hp scale with level. max damage 125 on special 4 second stun, 2 second gap or increase range and 3 second stun 3 second gap etc same as fristor
Korang... nothing atm more testing needed
zool 2 minions at a time, same pace as mort. currently he does not provide enough defence. perhaps keep the same if other champs are nerfed
elena, make special an area attack like gaia and add gap, 1 second
ding, seems fine if other changes are implimented, otherwize, boost damage and add some effect, like stun
joao... is a mess. increase damage or range or health
thor, reduce health raise melee damage
gwen should be able to help allies survive an area attack unscathed. increase rate of healing to match all area attackers damage
sabrina, seems fine if nerfs are applied to other champs otherwise make her special an area attack
edburt, seems fine if nerfs are applied to other champs
bev, is in every way worse than gwen. perhaps she should apply a damage or speed buff when she heals, if that is implimented range may need to be lowered
ALSO, healers should hit slightly harder or a lot harder. given they have low hp, their regular attack should scale proportionately. special is what should classify champs, not only hp/attack.
eira, seems fine if other champs are nerfed perhaps an hp or damage buff
gildward... if other champs are nerfed his shield should only equal any team mates max hp, including minions.
violet, if other champs are nerfed... may need to reexamine amount of damage her special does.
erik, seems fine if other champs are nerfed then perheps nerf special damage a bit
brian, see above
holgrush, see above
toyce, increase area of effectiveness of his buffs
everett, nothing atm more testing needed
chichi, seems fine if other champs are nerfed, otherwise raise damage on special or let him hit totems/towers again
miriel, seems fine if other champs are nerfed, otherwise raise health and damage
baiek, nothing atm more testing needed
grunder, see above
knud, seems fine if other champs are nerfed
karnac, raise damage on special, slightly raise hp
peacebot, raise damage on special or raise time of stun, or decrease charge time
snuft, very slightly raise damage of special, very slightly raise hp
chippy, raise hp should be even with peacebot
yorke... seems fine. perhaps add an area of effect to the last hit of his special.
gordon, same, perhaps reduce damage and add a short stun, if that, also raise hp
other totems seem fine, mort needs more testing.
gaia, add poison effect, d.o.t. half of sabrinas burn or summon a group of minions in target area as well as doing same damage she does now. minions same as edburt

ive put a lot of thought into this but it still doesnt feel perfect. im aware these are a lot of changes. i doubt if any of them will be implimented. but the biggest problem facing the balance of this game right now is how hard maya and aisha hit. and how fristor can still basically chain freeze most teams. I know this was a long read. and i appreciate it if you made it this far. devs, please take notice. Other members of the community please back up what ideas you like or offer more fixes. Make yourself heard.

I realize these changes would most likely slow the game. make destroying a totem more of a rarity. More games would come down to skill and skull count.

Last edited by Shankyu (2017-06-23 08:37:47)

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#2 2017-06-23 10:28:18

Dev Julia
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-16
Posts: 140

Re: Balancing ideas from a beta tester

Hi Shankyu,

thanks for the post! We are actually working on the new balance that will take into consideration the range, together with other Champion attributes.
When deciding on the stats we are planning to take into account if the attack is: this properties:

Stun
Area Attack
Area Attack Large
Area Attack with Stun
Area Attack Large with Stun
Overtime (the damage is deal over time and cannot be stopped - for example Sabrina)
Download (damage over time that can be stopped - Aisha, Maya)

Depending on attributes that Champion has, his stats will be adapted accordingly. (Champions with Area Attack Large with Stun, will deal less damage than the ones with just Area Attack etc).

In the upcoming days we will present this idea in more details.

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#3 2017-06-23 11:10:24

Hurdaci
Member
From: Bronx
Registered: 2017-04-20
Posts: 65
Website

Re: Balancing ideas from a beta tester

Sensabahnur those were great balance change ideas!
But seems like they were already thinking of balancing most champion specials according to a new system..
So I think we need to wait until they balance, and then propose some changes sad

Julia and what about Common-Rare-Epic system?
for example :

a-)
Common champion - Area attack with stun - 100 damage
Rare champion       - Area attack with stun - 110 damage
Epic champion        - Area attack with stun - 130 damage

or

b-)
Common champion - Area attack                         - 100 damage
Rare champion       - Area attack with stun           - 90 damage
Epic champion        - Large area attack with stun  - 80 damage

or

c-)
Common champion - Area attack                         - 100 damage
Rare champion       - Area attack with stun           - 100 damage
Epic champion        - Large area attack with stun  - 100 damage

Which one will you choose?

another thing you should keep in mind :

*Stun is the most effective type of special combined with attack champions, for example Gordon+Sabrina+Fristor now deal around 500 damage in 3 seconds, while receiving zero damage from the enemy. So we can think that "stun ability" like -it also gives a shield to our allies higher than current healer's specials.
This can be an extreme example but you can calculate the damage amount like, if an ability will have a stun, its damage needs to be 2x2 champion basic attack damage per second because we usually have 2 champions in lanes so when we stun an enemy, we will deal 2x2 champion basic attack damage more. Which equals an average of 25x2=50 damage per second. So we deal an average of 50dmgx4sec=200 damage when we use Fristor special. So even if Fristor has no damage on his special, we deal an average of 200 single target damage (+200 shield to allies) when we use it. Which is exactly similar to Elena's special damage. So Fristor SM damage needs to deal Zero damage in order to be balanced with Elena smile That's why even a lvl 1 Fristor works. With an attacker team.

Last edited by Hurdaci (2017-06-23 12:06:39)


Sad that I will be missing this game reach E-Sports level.

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#4 2017-06-23 12:12:21

Dev Julia
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-16
Posts: 140

Re: Balancing ideas from a beta tester

Hurdaci wrote:

Sensabahnur those were great balance change ideas!
But seems like they were already thinking of balancing most champion specials according to a new system..
So I think we need to wait until they balance, and then propose some changes sad

Julia and what about Common-Rare-Epic system?
for example :

a-)
Common champion - Area attack with stun - 100 damage
Rare champion       - Area attack with stun - 110 damage
Epic champion        - Area attack with stun - 130 damage

or

b-)
Common champion - Area attack                         - 100 damage
Rare champion       - Area attack with stun           - 90 damage
Epic champion        - Large area attack with stun  - 80 damage

or

c-)
Common champion - Area attack                         - 100 damage
Rare champion       - Area attack with stun           - 100 damage
Epic champion        - Large area attack with stun  - 100 damage

Which one will you choose?

another thing you should keep in mind :

*Stun is the most effective type of special combined with attack champions, for example Gordon+Sabrina+Fristor now deal around 500 damage in 3 seconds, while receiving zero damage from the enemy. So we can think that "stun ability" like -it also gives a shield to our allies higher than current healer's specials.
This can be an extreme example but you can calculate the damage amount like, if an ability will have a stun, its damage needs to be 2x2 champion basic attack damage per second because we usually have 2 champions in lanes so when we stun an enemy, we will deal 2x2 champion basic attack damage more. Which equals an average of 25x2=50 damage per second. So we deal an average of 50dmgx4sec=200 damage when we use Fristor special. So even if Fristor has no damage on his special, we deal an average of 200 single target damage (+200 shield to allies) when we use it. Which is exactly similar to Elena's special damage. So Fristor SM damage needs to deal Zero damage in order to be balanced with Elena smile That's why even a lvl 1 Fristor works. With an attacker team.

As mentioned in another post, rarities would not represent the power of each Champion but its complexity. In this case all Champions with Area attack would have more or less similar stats.

Depending on the champion extra attribute (Area damage, Large Area Damage) his general stats would change.

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#5 2017-06-24 05:37:47

Olara
Member
Registered: 2017-04-28
Posts: 17

Re: Balancing ideas from a beta tester

Thanks for sharing your thoughts...

I have similar ideas but more on buffing the weak champs rather than nerfing the strong ones...

Let's think in general and analize what the meta is giving us right now:


Fristor, maya, 2nd Tank
Keiyo, 2 tanks
Keiyo, fristor, tank
Grub, fristor, tank
Keiyo, grub, rok or fristor
Thor and double tank
Fristor, sab, gordon + tank
Thor + range + tank
Maya + meelee + tank

Prefered Tanks: ROK, drok, chi chi, gildward, hulgrush
TItans: Gordon and snuft
Totem: vort and mort

The meta gives us more variety than before, although there are 3-4 champs that are dominant... but this will always be...

My suggestion: give jaoa his old range again... jaoa Thor chippy + x would have a place in the meta again... i think azgoth wrote a nice thread about nerfing jaoa would minimize the dynamic of the game

Make maya more equal to aisha... she is kind of useless right now...

Give erik in additional to his power boost and a kind of immunity  against stuns... like 8 sek powerboost and 3 or 4 sek immunity.. he will be also in the meta again...

Gaia buff: make her special like thor's special... 300 damage on lvl 10... a range thor version would be definitley nice to play smile

Karnac: give his special a 1 sec stun... so at least he can interupt...

Yorke: 30 % of his special swing damage effekt all nearby enemies besides of the maintaarget...

Peacebot: change him to a meellee:) no shooting guns... instead some nice fist attacks smile

Some champs are added to the meta, and all titans would be an option again...

Last edited by Olara (2017-06-24 05:40:12)

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#6 2017-06-24 05:56:35

Olara
Member
Registered: 2017-04-28
Posts: 17

Re: Balancing ideas from a beta tester

I forgot the totems:

Zool: I'm not sure how to balance him right... 2 minions at one time right now would be too op I think... perhaps increase their health points...

Poseidon: he needs definitley a buff... increase the minions by one? smile or maybe faster spawn rate

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#7 2017-06-26 13:10:59

Dev Julia
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-16
Posts: 140

Re: Balancing ideas from a beta tester

There are some good ideas here! We are definitely going to make some changes in Zool and Poseidon - we want every totem to be unique in a way. Poseidon will most likely get the area damage.

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